观鸟镜和天文望远镜对比

johnsun

这个我有点发言权，比较过好朋友的televue tv85和我的蔡司85fl。虽然tv85是天文镜里兼顾便携和观鸟的。但是比起真正的观念镜还是长、重。对焦也不如观鸟镜方便。
光学上tv主要还是看目镜。tv配合pan24的感觉比zeiss亮一点。

quantedge

johnsun 发表于 2020-1-28 13:45
这个我有点发言权，比较过好朋友的televue tv85和我的蔡司85fl。虽然tv85是天文镜里兼顾便携和观鸟的。但是 ...

有没有对比过100倍以上两者的像质，正像棱镜 VS 高反天顶多少倍像质会出现较明显的差异？

johnsun

quantedge 发表于 2020-1-29 19:55
有没有对比过100倍以上两者的像质，正像棱镜 VS 高反天顶多少倍像质会出现较明显的差异？

不好意思，没有看过100倍，也没有在观星的场景下用过。

鹰眼

我66X100的星特朗观鸟镜看地面不错。6-700百米外的房间里开的电视能看清。但用来看天体那就倍数太小了。也就看看月球，能看见表面的环形山，看金星可以看出月芽状。其它的啥都看不出来，都是一个点。木星大红斑，土星环之类根本不可能看见。看接了单反后拍照再放大能看清不，没试过。所以，你要看天就用天文望远镜。

军事家英英

鹰眼 发表于 2020-2-2 13:14
我66X100的星特朗观鸟镜看地面不错。6-700百米外的房间里开的电视能看清。但用来看天体那就倍数太小了。也 ...

你好！--------------------------我记得星特朗100mm口径的鸟镜配的变焦目镜是22~67x100规格才对吧？好像不是66x的？？   另外，你说的600~700m用星特朗66x能看清电视里的情景，相当于肉眼约11米的距离看电视的效果，对吧？谢谢！

鹰眼

军事家英英 发表于 2020-2-5 12:59
你好！--------------------------我记得星特朗100mm口径的鸟镜配的变焦目镜是22~67x100规格才 ...

22X和66X的。我家距对面的一个小区楼房有540几米，我用测距仪测了。用66倍时，里面一家正在看电视，能看清视是湖南台的综艺节目。当然里面的细节不可能看清。我这个观鸟镜是低档镜。66倍时亮度较低了。要是高档的估计看得更清。对这种观鸟镜兴趣不大。

军事家英英

鹰眼 发表于 2020-2-8 17:24
22X和66X的。我家距对面的一个小区楼房有540几米，我用测距仪测了。用66倍时，里面一家正在看电视，能看 ...

你好-------------------------------就算距离是550米，66x时的拉近感大概相当于肉眼在8.3米左右看电视的效果吧？！看清电视台标志应该可以的......   但电视底下的移动的小字字幕是看不清的，对吧？   星特朗鸟镜确实如你所说的是国产比较低端的鸟镜之一（但星特朗的大口径如100mm的ED系列鸟镜，基本可以算中档稍偏上的档次鸟镜）。

鹰眼

军事家英英 发表于 2020-2-9 16:50
你好-------------------------------就算距离是550米，66x时的拉近感大概相当于肉眼在8.3米左 ...

我没说能看清下面的小字啊。人的长像都看不太清，几个名人还是能看出来。

旺销奖

2010年在406买了Sky Rover 102ED折射式。
在现场试用的时候，天气不大好，阴天惨白，Sky Rover 80ED在光学上完爆了蔡司的一款80mm观鸟镜。
当然，考虑到便携性、坚固性，这二者就不是同一种东西了。
就好比四百万的兰博基尼和二百万的悍马，二者都可以在公路上狂奔，都可以当做交通工具，但涉及到具体一些的应用环境，它们简直就是两种东西一样。

quantedge

chaosopp 发表于 2020-1-12 23:17
两个都玩，两个都摄影，所以还是有一点发言权的。
观鸟镜：884、黑金刚（严格的说这是个镜头）、湿滑95、k ...

“光学上，883拍月亮比东星的普消要好，色差要小，但是和哪怕80口径的英田比，色差也是不如的，不论是直焦还是目镜后。”  光学除了色差，还有球差、彗差和像散等。对比度，锐度，分辨率和英田80APO比较如何？（听说有些镜子为了极致的消球差，而适当地保留一些色差）。网上有 FSQ85  TMB92SS FC-100DLf/9 和Kowa 883的比较，结论是两者差别不大，光学上同一级别的。

刚到手的全新kowa883, 1.6增倍镜，与顶级天望FSQ85

http://www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=395987&extra=&page=4

yumn21   发表于 2017-1-16

“今天凌晨终于试看了木星，虽然天气状况还很一般，也总比看不到要强。先上es24,二秒都不到马上就找到木星了，用赤道仪追踪。看了一下，木星的几个卫星如针尖般细致。马上换xo2.5,上200倍后色差依然为零，锐度依然很好。再换tv五倍+delos12,上250倍，仍然零色差，锐度还不错，可以确定和fsq不相上下。”

Anyone used a spotting scope for astronomy? 34楼
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/539202-anyone-used-a-spotting-scope-for-astronomy/page-2
TamijiHomma  Posted 05 June 2016

“Longer one (TakahashiFC100DL f/9) yields 51x-102x with Leica ASPH Zoom eyepiece.

Shorter one (Kowa TSN-883)yields 40x-96x with Kowa TE-11WZ zoom eyepiece and 1.6x extender.

Both produce excellentlunar/planet image.

I tested Kowa at high power 270x.  It produces excellent starimage.  I was very surprised.

I have three copies of Swarovski ATX 95 objective modules.  None comes close to the Kowaat high power. (high power test was with Swarovski ATX 95objective modules with EMS visual back.)

(How would you ratethe Kowa high power performance compared to the TMB92?)

I would say Kowa TSN-883 is as good as TMB92SS if your application is 25x-96x range."

“I tested a few short focal length eyepieces (Ethos SX 3.7mm,  Takahashi LE 3.6mm, Pentax XO 2.58, Nagler 2.5mm, Vixen 2.4mm, yielding 270x-416x), image still remains very sharp.  It shows how well the spotting scope is made.  Yes, image is not so bright at the power”  49#


Spotting scope for occasional astronomy - youropinions?  16楼
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/628260-spotting-scope-for-occasional-astronomy-your-opinions/

“Here is side-by-side with FC-100DL f/9 (with Amici prism diagonal) andKowa TSN-883.  TSN-883 does very well against the longer/bigger brother.

If you want higher magnification, you can use standard 1.25" eyepiecewith proper eyepiece adapter.

It does very good job at very high power. It shows how well the TSN-883 is made.       ”

Tammy Posted 05 August 2018

quantedge

chaosopp 发表于 2020-1-12 23:17
两个都玩，两个都摄影，所以还是有一点发言权的。
观鸟镜：884、黑金刚（严格的说这是个镜头）、湿滑95、k ...

玩过的顶级镜子很多，厉害！ 是不是还有几个天文APO组装的大双筒？

quantedge

关键在全正像系统对像质的影响，转一个CN上的回帖， 按照其说法，现在的某些顶级观鸟镜基本上达到了光学的衍射极限（如果是这样的话，那和同口径顶级APO天文望远镜光学上也差不多）。很可能物镜和全正像棱镜两者做了统筹设计，作为一个整体进行像差的校正。
Anyone used a spotting scope for astronomy?    #50  Kimmo Absetz   Posted 14 June 2016
https://www.cloudynights.com/top ... or-astronomy/page-2
“Hi all,
I also use the Swarovski ATX 95 for both terrestrial and astro use, and have tested multiple samples of all the premium spotters on the market over the last 20 years or so. My two cents:

- With spotters perhaps more than with astro refractors, one must brace oneself for sample variation. Since spotters are intended for use at exit pupils of over 1 mm, even top-line manufacturers have been allowing poorer quality with respect to aberrations than what would be considered acceptable for astro scopes. It hasn't helped that for 45 degree angled scopes most manufacturers (Nikon Fieldscopes is a notable exception) have been using a prism design (Schmidt) that requires very high manufacturing precision to not degrade the star images at high magnifications. Fortunately, things have been improving over the last 5-10 years, and nowadays good samples of Kowa 883, Swaro ATX, Nikon Fieldscope or EDG or Zeiss Diascope can have essentially diffraction-limited optics. My Swarovski does, and I have seen several others that do. Mediocre or poor specimen are still quite common, though, so you really need to try before you buy or to have generous return policies if you buy untested.

- Since the best samples I have tested of both the ATX 95 and the Kowa 883 have had nearly perfect optics, their relative difference in resolving power has come down to aperture, where the ATX wins by 8%. In addition, the ATX has significantly better light transmission, which readily shows in terrestrial use in low light.

- Kowa 883 has the 1,6x extender, which is fabulously good. In addition, it is possible to stack more than one extender on it. I have briefly tried it with two extenders back to back, and the image held up beautifully. This way you get to 154x. This combination looks like the one in Tammy's top photograph, except that there are two of the extenders instead of one. The combo is just as neat and solid as with one. In principle, you can keep adding them until you run out of money, space or light throughput.

- With the ATX 95, for astro use and sometimes for difficult distant bird ID's in good seeing, I use a Zeiss 3x12 monocular stuck into the eyecup as a booster. This way, you get 72-216x, but since the Zeiss 3x12 does not have particularly splendid multi coatings and adds quite a bit of glass to the light path, you lose a fair bit of brightness and contrast. Field of view gets very narrow also, but resolving power is very good.

- With any of these 45 degree spotters, fashioning a simple aiming device around the objective end or using a red-dot sighter helps immensely.

Kimmo
”

chaosopp

quantedge 发表于 2020-2-15 01:25
玩过的顶级镜子很多，厉害！ 是不是还有几个天文APO组装的大双筒？

没，有裕众的100apo，暂时 没有组天文apo的想法，麻烦。有tv的双目接toa130看看凑活了。
有天文apo组的大双筒，厉害！是不是深圳那位用l304mm apo组的大双筒？

chaosopp

quantedge 发表于 2020-2-15 00:56
“光学上，883拍月亮比东星的普消要好，色差要小，但是和哪怕80口径的英田比，色差也是不如的，不论是直 ...

色差对比用目视和拍摄都能验证。
球差和慧差在中心大概40%的区域和英田拍摄差不多，目视可能要稍好，边缘比英田好的多，因为英田不是平场，没有太大意义，边缘甚至比我的toa130ns都好。但是比fsq106在拍摄上差很多，目视差不多。
对比和分辨率比英田的好些，锐度差不多。
fsq85没接触过，直觉883是不如的，只是直觉。我用过884拍深空，还挺不错的，鸟镜最大的优势是轻便，劣势是天文配件稀少难配，你知道为了找个884的冷冻ccd接环我在yahoo蹲了多久吗？

quantedge

chaosopp 发表于 2020-2-21 22:33
没，有裕众的100apo，暂时 没有组天文apo的想法，麻烦。有tv的双目接toa130看看凑活了。
有天文apo组的 ...

304APO 大双太猛一个人玩不动。北旅镜友自制的100-130口径 ED APO 大双，观星观景两不误。

众人拾柴火焰高：自制120ED大双筒横空出世  2015-12-8
http://www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=375121

LZOS-LXY大双筒制作完成！  2016-5-7
www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=386697

AT130F6大双筒制作完成   2016-9-1
http://www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=393507

组个天文双 傻 大 黑 粗 130apo  2016-9-13
www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=393989

甩卖130apo大双筒  2018-4-22
www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=421578

Borg 107FL双筒制作完成   2018-4-24
www.bggd.com/bbs/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=421649

NCDG

大家都在讨论哪款望远镜光学更好，却从不讨论机械做工的加工精度。

huhuzhu

孔雀草 发表于 2020-1-19 17:13
天文镜用来看地面目标是颠倒的

一般加天顶镜。左右镜像而已，上下没倒，很正常。

朋朋

个人觉得，天文镜的优势是结构简单，更适合国内生产，容易缩短跟国际产品的距离。
观鸟镜工艺还是相对复杂些，造成了国内外产品差距明显大于天文镜。

旺销奖

观鸟镜是各方面性能——防水、防震、防尘、户外工况、便携、光学性能——互相妥协的产物，而天文望远镜则抛弃户外性能，将光学效果发挥到极致。
拿木仓打个比方，观鸟镜就相当于苏联AK、国产八一杠，美国的M16A1，最好的观鸟镜相当于苏联SVD或美国M21。
天文望远镜就相当于闩动式狙击步枪，比如雷明顿M700，比如瓦尔特2000，比如国产二十六万。

jasson777

很有参考意义的帖子，最近正在愁给儿子买个观鸟还是天文，学习中
如果对天文不是很发烧，基本上不拍摄，只是有时间拿出来看看天，从实用角度出发，建议还是观鸟镜，原因很简单：灵活方便，拿起来就可以用，对一般人来说，同价位、同规格天文镜看到的东西，观鸟镜也八九不离十。